Collectors Music Reviews

Very nice review of a sorely underappreciated July, 1973 Zeppelin soundboard. Winston Remasters did this show justice in 2005, combining the SB with an audience recording that’s at least very good in quality. Nice for a fan release to beat a silver label to the punch.

What is Silly Putty? I have not heard of it. I’ve really lost track of the Wendy label and am not really aware of their activities.

I think a great project for TCOLZ would be a five disc set with both the soundboard and audience recordings. It would fill a considerable need.

Who cares where the labels get their sources as long as they end up on silver disc??!!

Even the most casual reader of this website should know by now that:
1. We know these tapes are from the internet torrent sites; and
2. We don’t care.

Sadly our hobby is dying a slow death as more and more new labels are going the CDR route instead of pressing some amazing shows on silver disc. The new title announcements from the vendors I deal with now have a larger proportion of cdr releases than silver cd releases and this disparity seems to increase with each new update I receive.I have passed on more than one great new title because it was on cdr…..Now that is something to be concerned with instead of where a silver disc label gets their source from!!

Ya gotta spread the word to music lovers. It’s easier now w/the internet than ever. If you belong to any of these twitters or facebooks, put this site down, and create a link. Ask them to donate too!
But the easiest way to spread the word, is to try and get CD’s of concerts you may have been at, and play them for people or burn copies and just hand them out.

Hasn’t it become a bit of a vicious circle? Labels can’t or won’t release silver disks unless collectors buy them, but collectors won’t buy the stuff they already have and just about any new stuff they can download for free. Most collectors REALLY don’t want to buy CD-R titles cause they are pretty much exactly the same as the download which collectors can do themseleves.
This leaves some silver labels little choice but to go the route of extravagent packages to try to appeal to the very few hard core collectors that still remain OR go very cheap by copying another labels releases.
You can always blame the hoarders who won’t sell/give/share with the labels and/or the general collecting public but there doesn’t seem to be much left out there.

You hit the mail right on the head Wilbur. With the advent of file sharing it must not be profitable to make silver disc releases of most bands these days but it is cheap and easy to create some artwork and burn a bunch of cdr’s. And Eric you make some valid points as well. From what I am told you need to order a minimum # of discs to have silver discs made so it is much easier and cheaper to just make a cdr in small quantities as they sell. There are many shows by bands which only appear on CDr I would love to have but I refuse to pay for a CDR title so have to be satified with downloading. It is nice to have the music but it is just not the same as getting a nice new shiny silver disc of a great show. I am sure you all understand where I am coming from ;))))

It could be the case that our hobby is dying a slow death. Or maybe not. Predicting the future is always risky and many times in the past forty years there have been times and events that “sounded the death knell of bootlegs.”

However, at this point I do agree it is time to question the viability of our favorite artists and our collections. My favorite bands don’t exists anymore and those who are still around are getting up there in years and are not producing work up to the standards that made us love them in the first place.

Is there anything really available that is revolutionary, groundbreaking, or essential?

Regarding my collection, it has expanded exponentially since I started this site several years ago, and I don’t have time to listen to everything. At this point it seems like I’m collecting for the sake of collecting instead for the love of the music.

If and when the manufacture of bootleg silvers stops, the thousands upon thousands that have been produced over the past twenty years will still exist and be available. This is why, in case you haven’t noticed, I’ve been reviewing older titles in addition to keeping up with the new releases. This Midas Touch title is thirteen years old and still, in my opinion, hasn’t been surpased. It is the same situation with many of the Highland titles as well and the older they are the more collectible they become.

I agree with your post, although I’m not implying that I’ve lost the joy of collecting. I have a large collection and I spend so much time focusing upon obtaining and reviewing each week’s stack of new releases. And there is a lot to be excited about as well as releases that seem pointless to me.

I am emphasizing that I believe the most interesting things have already come out, including the videos and soundboards surfacing in the past ten years.

Personally I don’t think the hobby will die off. I’ve been hearing that for years, yet it is still around. The lack of new material and the tape hoarders is one issue, but the death of the entire concept of bootlegging is much different and that will always be around.

Other than the artists I write about regularly on this site, I’m not really excited about contemporary acts. Most of my non-bootleg music listening is focused upon classical, renaissance and foreign music.

I’m glad to hear that you haven’t lost the joy in collecting. I’m not sure exactly when “collecting” becomes more about obtaining everything instead of actually listening to (and hopefully enjoying) everything but it does seem to be a fairly common occurence. I’m sure with all the work you put into this site, you must spend more time than the average collector obtaining than listening (and it’s much appreciated!).
I can’t agree with your premise that the most interesting stuff has already come out because I certainly don’t know what’s left to be found. What if the first Zepp show ever was discovered? What if there were more rehearsals or unreleased songs found? What if there were versions of songs that we thought were never done live only to find out that they had? I suppose it all comes down to what excites you and that is very much be an individual preference.
Again, I’m not saying the hobby will die off but I’m saying it will change significantly IF/when silver CDs are no longer available. This will cause more people to stop collecting and let’s face it, due to the age of the music and the collectors among other factors, less people will be collectors.
If by the “entire concept of bootlegging”, we are talking about people bringing in recording devices to live concerts, etc, yes, that will likely continue well into the future. However, IF we are talking about people actively collecting the silver pressed CDs of any specific band, that will likely stop and/or significantly change and I’m afraid fairly soon.

I agree with you Jerry. I’m quite happy with the rarities from diverse bands that pop up regularly enough that a lack of silver boots on more obscure bands isn’t so much of a famine– Take the 13th Floor Elevators 10-CD Box Set, “Sign Of The Three-Eyed Men” for example– that set would cost $300+ if it had been a bootleg!

Now I’ll still buy bootleg Beatles, Floyd, Zeppelin, Hendrix and other big name bands on CD, but I won’t pay CD prices for a CDR. Why should I? Some bootleg sellers discount last year’s big titles in their inventory sales, and sell them for 1/2 to 1/4 what they were originally charging, and I’m happy to grab them at those prices.

In another 10 years the 50-year rule will start coming into play on several countries public domain laws, and I expect we’ll see a plethora of grey-area distributors popping up in those nations releasing classic rock bands, just as today we see a lot of classic jazz material from the 20′s, 30′s 40′s and even 50′s coming out on 5 or 10-CD sets that cost $15 or $20.

I’d like to dispel the rumor that all bootlegs are being made by Japanese bootleggers. It may have something to do with the ease of finding manufacturing plants that don’t ask questions, I’ll grant you that a lot of releases do come from Japan, but there are number of collectable releases that (near as I can tell) are originating in Eastern Europe, and distributed by Western European sellers– again it has to do with finding CD manufacturing plants that don’t ask questions or aren’t afraid of being busted by their nation’s equivalent of the RIAA…

The idea that file-sharing is killing the bootleg industry is just as fallacious as the music industry’s old claim ‘home taping is killing the music industry!’ As many have rightly pointed out, it seems that most bootleggers are getting their material from bit-torrent sites; the hoarders tapes are leaking out one by one… but the number of hard-core bootleg buyers only number in the thousands, same as in the mid-70′s. A lot of us (like myself) have been buying them that long– there have never been that many fanatic collectors– sure, there are some bands (like Nirvana say, Oasis or Guns ‘N Roses) whose flash-in-the-pan fans sometimes bought bootleg CDs if they were packaged pretty, but they weren’t hard-core collectors like some of my prog-rock friends are about Yes or classic rock friends are about Dylan or Neil Young. I’ll be old and gray (in another decade or so) and still collecting Floyd and Zeppelin and Beatles as long as Sigma, Empress Valley and Mr. Claudel keep crankin’ ‘em out.

Walterfive, reading your post was interesting but I disagree with you on a few points…
1). Unfortunately, it’s very unlikely that (m)any releases will pop up in “grey area countries” as more countries are signed onto trade agreements than ever before and more countries in Europe are either now in the EU or trying very hard to get in.
Even when Italy and Germany and other European countries DID release the so called “copy protection gap” titles in the late 80s/early 90s, nothing of any significance was ever released. Labels such as Great Dane, Oil Well, Living Legend, Swinging PIg, etc, released nothing but stereotypical shows such as Destroyer, Blueberry Hill and BBC Tapes. The vast majority of these were released in simple jewel cases and often with very boring artwork.
Unfortunately, this is exactly what will happen again if/when any countries get past the 50 year copyright mark you mentioned.
2). Perhaps, it may be true that Japanese are not releasing every single bootleg in the world however there is no dispute that they have been responsible for pretty much every inovation in packaging (such as paper cases, large box sets, unique collectables, etc, etc) and unearthing rare shows, as well the sheer number of releases over the years. When Japan shuts down, there may still be bootlegs, but again will there be any that you would really want?
3). It is a well known fact which has been reported in many major media outlets that obtaining music thru downloading is now nearly as popular as purchasing CDs. The percentage of “illegal” downloads of official music can be argued to be anywhere from record company quotes of 90% (yep, I think it’s bullshit too) to virtually any other figure you would like to quote. Officially released music sells in the millions of copies for popular artists. Even if we accept the premise that illegal downloads might affect some of these sales, there are still plenty of people in the pool buying the music. Record companies can even make money by selling songs for 99 cents thru Itunes (and you can’t tell me they aren’t making a profit when they can afford to sell for 99 cents)!
Compared to people listening to officially released music, people listening to bootlegs are a tiny fraction. Take a percentage of this tiny fraction out of the buying pool due to downloading, and of course you are affecting sales. Bootleggers don’t exactly have the option of selling single songs for 99 cents each nor do they have much opportunity to sell CD-R titles (you wrote yourself that you wouldn’t buy CD-R titles for CD prices).
4). There are MANY, many more times people listening to bootlegs now than there ever could have been in the 70s. Sadly, this doesn’t mean there are anywhere near the same number of hard core buyers there were in the 70s. In fact, as most of these people get their bootlegs for free, there are significantly fewer hard core buyers than there were in the 70s.
IF bootleg labels are getting their sources from downloading, it only goes to prove that the bootleg labels are selling even fewer copies than before. The labels surely can’t release CD-R titles (any collector could get the exact same show for free from the exact same source) and with fewer hard core collectors willing to lay out the cash, the labels would be seriously hurting.
5). I very much hope you are able to continue collecting until you are old and grey but you may have to find something else to collect if you are expecting releases from Empress Valley, Misterclaudel and Sigma labels as all of these Japanese labels will certainly be long gone in less than the decade you have left.

I was at a regular old brick & mortar record store (well… a pretty sorta semi-hip one in Seattle) the other day and the employees were talking about a release that the store paid $3 for and it should then sell for $5 or something as a standard markup… but it was a rather “it” local band or hot seller or something (perhaps Modest Mouse) and they were thinking about pricing it at $6 instead which would still be a good deal for the current consumer. then one of the guys says something like “yeah… just another sign that cds are a dead format”. i mean… $6 for a new CD?? WTF?

and that’s the concept that I think is underlying this current discussion. it’s not really about silver pressed bootlegs vs. cdr’s per se, etc. it’s really about “permanent” physical possession vs. “transient” digital ownership. cd’s vs. downloading.

people are moving into a fully digital format. and during this time of great transition, if consumers can have some sort of physical momento (i.e. a big classic slab of vinyl along with their digital copy, etc), many see that as a more tangible investment or something…. i.e for the time being people (esp. collectors) still want something physical for their $.

but on the other side of the coin, obtaining ROIOs has a much different physical and “moral” connotation. bootlegs are “illegal” and most interested parties don’t need a permanent physical remnant of that transaction (esp. when obtained for free i.e. old “tape trading” rules) — they’re fine with downloading. and really there is little memory of a different time when file sharing didn’t exist… and as such actual bootlegs were a rare and exotic find. the current generation as a whole could care less about “silver” cd bootlegs. the result is that professional silver cd bootlegs are ill-proportionately negatively affected.

but hardcore “collectors” still crave the permanent physical rarity behind the hunt… and always will.

some here are realistically questioning what will be left to hunt. i do, however, agree that some of the lesser known but still great great bands (like the stooges) are essentially getting bootlegs released officially since there is a demand for exciting rare material…

this will not vanish, and the hoarded tapes behind great “popular” bands will still escape to be heard… but yes, the time is probably coming to a slow end where each quality hoarded tape will be “pressed to silver disc”…it’s just no longer economically feasible.

In fact, I wonder how long the newest tapes by artists of greatest demand will continue to be de facto “pressed to silver disc”? The clock is probably ticking… so hoarders… unlock the vaults!